Comments on: Myth, the child, and the fundamentalist atheist http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/ Just another WordPress weblog Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:08:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: padraigin http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-305 padraigin Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:40:14 +0000 http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-305 DUDE! Ya I knew I remembered that being even cooler. Keep reading pages 8 and 9 and it explains that "Children at all ages need accurate, clear and age-appropriate information about sexuality, as a healthy, natural and normal part of being human. Our attitudes towards our bodies and relationships begin to be formed at a very young age." So there is sexual education incorporated all the way through, but it's in grade 7&8 that they begin looking at understanding how to respect the individual sexuality of others etc. DUDE!
Ya I knew I remembered that being even cooler. Keep reading pages 8 and 9 and it explains that “Children at all ages need accurate, clear and age-appropriate information about sexuality, as a healthy, natural and normal part of being human. Our attitudes towards our bodies and relationships begin to be formed at a very young age.” So there is sexual education incorporated all the way through, but it’s in grade 7&8 that they begin looking at understanding how to respect the individual sexuality of others etc.

]]> By: padraigin http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-304 padraigin Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:31:27 +0000 http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-304 Well, Jaclyn, I must say, I appreciate hearing that I can communicate ideas effectively on this topic. It is so bloody close to my heart that when I try it often feels somewhat like a bit of an explosion and I am never sure it will make any sense from the outside. Also I laughed out loud at the notion of an imperfect solution being okay on account of the fact that it's being applied to theoretical children. What a wonderful reality check :P. I do like/see the virtues of the religious pre-school idea. ...interesting for sure. Another thing I have found it the Unitarian Church...which is basically just painfully open and about being a community to foster humanism from what I can understand. They value Buddhist awareness, it seems, and many religions but openly admit to their coming from a Judeo-Christian background...and I have thought about that being a good place to send kids to Sunday School. Check this link out. http://www.firstunitariantoronto.org/parent%20brochure2007-2008web.pdf --page 6 and 7 are the most directly interesting. Something I think you'll value as much as I do: on page 7 it says that for Gr. 7&8 the classes help "participants gain the knowledge, values, and skills to lead sexually healthy, responsible lives". Now, admittedly, I don't know exactly what they mean by that...but it doesn't seem like the silence/abstinence I got at church camp. Well, Jaclyn, I must say, I appreciate hearing that I can communicate ideas effectively on this topic. It is so bloody close to my heart that when I try it often feels somewhat like a bit of an explosion and I am never sure it will make any sense from the outside.

Also I laughed out loud at the notion of an imperfect solution being okay on account of the fact that it’s being applied to theoretical children. What a wonderful reality check :P.

I do like/see the virtues of the religious pre-school idea. …interesting for sure. Another thing I have found it the Unitarian Church…which is basically just painfully open and about being a community to foster humanism from what I can understand. They value Buddhist awareness, it seems, and many religions but openly admit to their coming from a Judeo-Christian background…and I have thought about that being a good place to send kids to Sunday School.

Check this link out. http://www.firstunitariantoronto.org/parent%20brochure2007-2008web.pdf –page 6 and 7 are the most directly interesting. Something I think you’ll value as much as I do: on page 7 it says that for Gr. 7&8 the classes help “participants gain the knowledge, values, and
skills to lead sexually healthy, responsible lives”. Now, admittedly, I don’t know exactly what they mean by that…but it doesn’t seem like the silence/abstinence I got at church camp.

]]> By: Jaclyn http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-303 Jaclyn Sun, 03 Feb 2008 01:49:10 +0000 http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-303 First of all, regarding your last few posts, I must say that I am forever envious of your ability to quite succinctly write about religion and make clear so many of the points that I believe, but struggle to say as well. No small feat there, missy. Second of all, when I think about raising my own (still very theoretical) child[ren]--and it's something I find myself thinking about at least a few times a week--I often come up against the same sorts of issues. Especially being part of a religion that brings with it a minority culture, it will be important to me that they know about and feel part of this. Living in a Judeo-Christian society, too, I feel that they would benefit from an understanding of the mythology. Whether or not they end up believing in God is not my concern (and, as far as I actually AM concerned, certainly none of my business in terms of desiring them to go one way or another). What I don't want, however, is for them to feel coerced into a set of religious beliefs. So far, my solution to this is religious pre-school. It's an imperfect solution (no problem, though, as it is as-yet only being applied to the theoretical child[ren]), but it's the best I've come up with yet. It offers a fun-focused exposure to the religion and culture (Songs in Hebrew! Chanukah colouring books!) without the depth of explanation that I feel usually drives people towards feeling obligated to one religion or another. After that, it's off to a secular education. All of this, of course, depends on who my partner is (or if I have one at all, though I certainly hope I will). Anyway, in terms of agnosticism, I use the word to talk about myself, but I wonder if there's something else I can use. I'm agnostic in the sense that I don't think it can be proved that there does or does not exist a god. I'm something else (perhaps) in the sense that I don't think it matters, anyway. Like you said in a previous post (so well!), the belief in a god isn't there to meet a rational need, so trying to prove it as a rational argument is moot. Oh, and ridiculous. Really, really ridiculous. First of all, regarding your last few posts, I must say that I am forever envious of your ability to quite succinctly write about religion and make clear so many of the points that I believe, but struggle to say as well. No small feat there, missy.

Second of all, when I think about raising my own (still very theoretical) child[ren]–and it’s something I find myself thinking about at least a few times a week–I often come up against the same sorts of issues. Especially being part of a religion that brings with it a minority culture, it will be important to me that they know about and feel part of this. Living in a Judeo-Christian society, too, I feel that they would benefit from an understanding of the mythology. Whether or not they end up believing in God is not my concern (and, as far as I actually AM concerned, certainly none of my business in terms of desiring them to go one way or another). What I don’t want, however, is for them to feel coerced into a set of religious beliefs.

So far, my solution to this is religious pre-school. It’s an imperfect solution (no problem, though, as it is as-yet only being applied to the theoretical child[ren]), but it’s the best I’ve come up with yet. It offers a fun-focused exposure to the religion and culture (Songs in Hebrew! Chanukah colouring books!) without the depth of explanation that I feel usually drives people towards feeling obligated to one religion or another. After that, it’s off to a secular education. All of this, of course, depends on who my partner is (or if I have one at all, though I certainly hope I will).

Anyway, in terms of agnosticism, I use the word to talk about myself, but I wonder if there’s something else I can use. I’m agnostic in the sense that I don’t think it can be proved that there does or does not exist a god. I’m something else (perhaps) in the sense that I don’t think it matters, anyway. Like you said in a previous post (so well!), the belief in a god isn’t there to meet a rational need, so trying to prove it as a rational argument is moot.

Oh, and ridiculous. Really, really ridiculous.

]]> By: padraigin http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-302 padraigin Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:16:51 +0000 http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-302 I like what you're saying about agnosticism spreading wider. I think you are falling on the verge of skepticism there though. There are things we can discover and know about life, and how to live it, and how to interact with others (if only through trail and error). It is on the more profound questions like the existence of God, the origin of the Universe, the Nature of Truth, and whether the notions of Right and Wrong really hold that we really must admit we can't know. I do like your notion of not leaving the house before lunch on any given sunday. I didn't touch in any of my posts on this though on how religion has been (and is) used to control--and the Sunday morning bit comes out there. There is a limit to how drunk you can get, or how much fun you can have on any given Saturday if you have to get up for mass first thing Sunday ;). I like what you’re saying about agnosticism spreading wider. I think you are falling on the verge of skepticism there though. There are things we can discover and know about life, and how to live it, and how to interact with others (if only through trail and error). It is on the more profound questions like the existence of God, the origin of the Universe, the Nature of Truth, and whether the notions of Right and Wrong really hold that we really must admit we can’t know.

I do like your notion of not leaving the house before lunch on any given sunday.

I didn’t touch in any of my posts on this though on how religion has been (and is) used to control–and the Sunday morning bit comes out there. There is a limit to how drunk you can get, or how much fun you can have on any given Saturday if you have to get up for mass first thing Sunday ;).

]]> By: A.R. Gaudio http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-301 A.R. Gaudio Sat, 02 Feb 2008 06:49:38 +0000 http://gardenofdaisies.padraiginmurphy.com/2008/02/01/myth-the-child-and-the-fundamentalist-atheist/#comment-301 Had a long talk about this with a friend of mine a few snowfalls ago. I am very tired right now and will not go into great details, but a lot of atheists (and I generally caucus with them) seem to be pushing a certain interpretation of secularism as the only proverbial game in town. Know what I call that? Orthodoxy. It was my loathing for orthodoxy that drove me to atheism in the first place. You can bring children up with a good and perfectly (rationally) sound secular narrative. You can even avoid the rampant consumerism in it. Just avoid thinking about what "IT" "IS" all the time. Agnosticism as the only 'rational' claim - I might take a certain exception to that vis-a-vis God (only because I see nontheism as distinct, however similar) - but I will take it just a bit further. One must be agnostic on just about everything one encounters, ever. And if anyone ever tries to force you to go somewhere on Sunday morning, tell them to get fucked and go back to sleep. Or put the kettle on. One or the other, but the house must not be left any earlier than Sunday lunchtime. Had a long talk about this with a friend of mine a few snowfalls ago. I am very tired right now and will not go into great details, but a lot of atheists (and I generally caucus with them) seem to be pushing a certain interpretation of secularism as the only proverbial game in town.

Know what I call that? Orthodoxy. It was my loathing for orthodoxy that drove me to atheism in the first place.

You can bring children up with a good and perfectly (rationally) sound secular narrative. You can even avoid the rampant consumerism in it. Just avoid thinking about what “IT” “IS” all the time.

Agnosticism as the only ‘rational’ claim - I might take a certain exception to that vis-a-vis God (only because I see nontheism as distinct, however similar) - but I will take it just a bit further. One must be agnostic on just about everything one encounters, ever.

And if anyone ever tries to force you to go somewhere on Sunday morning, tell them to get fucked and go back to sleep. Or put the kettle on. One or the other, but the house must not be left any earlier than Sunday lunchtime.

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